Making Better Sales Agents: Tanja Lee on Trust and Transparency

Have you ever had an agent tell you that another buyer is coming in with an offer in the next day or so, so you better put your best foot forward?

How about an agent who, after you've made an offer, asked you whether you wanted to be informed of other offers or be happy to let it go because that's your best and final price? I bet you felt snookered. Some agents practice this dialogue day in and day out.

Others mean it when they say these things, but how can you tell the difference?

So I think the consumer needs to just get present, no matter what your reasons for selling or buying are, please get present to the gravity of this transaction because this will make or break the level of choice you have for your future.

And whilst you might be time poor and tired and homeschooling or you've lost your job or you're relocating and you've got a lot on your plate, when you give your power away to somebody else, without fully understanding what's involved in the effective sale of your asset.

I think that's where people make a mistake.

Welcome to The Elephant in the Room. This is the podcast where we love to talk about the big things in property that never usually get talked about. I'm Veronica Morgan, real estate agent, buyer's agent, co-host of Foxtel's Location Location Location Australia and author of Auction Ready.

And I'm Chris Bates, mortgage broker. Before we get started, I need to let you know that nothing we say on here can be taken as personal advice. We always recommend you engage the services of a professional.

Don't forget that you can access the transcript for this episode on the website as well as download our free full forecast report. Which experts can you trust to get it right? The elephant in the room dot com dot au.

We started this podcast back in 2018 because we wanted to investigate the different ways in which property buyers are influenced, often without them even knowing. Sales agents were high on our list of people to interview and many were incredibly frank in revealing their tactics. But where do they learn this stuff?

How do they develop the skills to influence buyers? What's the difference between sleazy sales tactics, a special kind of voodoo or the mark of a professional agent? Today we're going to get the perspective of one leadership and mindset coach who has made waves in the real estate industry.

Tanjali started her coaching business in 2015 and is one of those rare people in this industry who didn't come from this industry. The genesis of her business lies in her own experience of being underwhelmed client of a real estate agent.

Recently, I've observed a few agent listing presentations and one in particular stood out. A young, sharp agent regaled me with examples of how he uses the smoke and mirrors of highly practiced dialogue to create urgency with buyers.

He was cocky and I was nauseous because it dawned on me that he's a disciple of a pretty popular movement in real estate circles.

So we reached out to Tanja and asked her if she'd come and talk to us about the differences she sees in the ways agents work to influence buyers and affect sales outcomes. Thank you for joining us, Tanja.

That is an outstanding intro. Wow. The special kind of voodoo. I love it. Thank you so much, both of you, Veronica and Chris, for the opportunity and has completely recreated my experience of being a vendor back in 2014, actually 2017.

So yeah, thanks for the opportunity to be here, guys. I really appreciate it.

No, thank you, Tanja. I mean, you kind of maybe have taken my question out of my mouth. I mean, what got you to, you know, you said 2015, I'm thinking that's when you started the business as well.

What got you to kind of forge a sort of career and try to make a positive change in the real estate profession?

Yeah. So, you know, Chris, I was just an average consumer looking to sell the family home and back in November 2014. And, you know,

We had a, we started a relationship with an agent who did, you know, it was really great. Like we were pretty uncommitted at that point and we were just wanting to test the water and see what the value for our asset was.

And he was great in the sense that he really kind of stayed sticky with us for the year and kept checking in every three months. You know, how are you guys going? Have you made a decision yet? And we're like, no, I'm not sure.

And, you know, it came to the point where like, right, we're ready to rock and roll. And so we invited Agent A back into the house. And as soon as we said to him, okay, we're ready to rock and roll, his whole demeanor changed. He came back into the house.

He literally kind of just walked in, plonked his compendium on the dining table, sat down, pulled out the contracts, shoved it across the table and said, you know, so guys, here's the marketing schedule. Here's the commission structure. Sign here.

And I said to him, Agent A, you know, I said, look, thank you very much. I said, we have decided to actually also get a couple of other opinions.

And this dude, look, to his credit, we gave him all the signs that he was our guy, but he definitely did not graduate from the Lady Gaga poker face school because he was obviously disappointed.

which in that moment told me he was attached to the outcome. And a little tip to agents, you ain't done until you – like when the authority is signed, you can probably relax your belly and sigh out with the relief of, okay, you're contracted for the privilege to sell this person's biggest asset.

So he was attached to the outcome. It was really more about him than it was about us. And fair enough, you know, so – We then brought in agent B and I liked her because on paper, she had evidence that she was effectively negotiating the highest value for the properties in the area.

Big mistake that she was making though, was every time she asked us a question and we answered it, particularly my husband, she cut him off. She kept cutting him off. She wouldn't listen. She was like pushing her agenda. And when she left, I said, what do you think?

He's like, I don't like her. I'm like, why? He goes, cause she just wouldn't let me speak. And then Agent C came in and he's what I call Switzerland. He was masterful at matching and mirroring, which is a neuro-linguistic technique of really effectively building rapport. He just really met us where we were.

He put his stuff on the dining table. But what I noticed, guys, was he kind of shoved it to the side, leant into the table and said, tell me about you guys and what would you love to see happen here?

And what I find interesting is we had a relationship with Agent A for over a year. And we met this guy and within 20 minutes, we signed up with him.

So it's all about your presence, your authenticity and losing yourself in service of the client and not becoming attached to the outcome. That experience had me really inquire into why do some agents fly and others flop when it comes to building connection and asking permission to sell people's biggest asset.

It's a massive transaction. So yeah, I just did about three and a half months of research. I started to uncover what the biggest problems in the industry were. I found a couple of pockets. I was doing entrepreneurial leadership coaching at the time. I was looking for a niche to position my business in.

And the more I dug, the more I found that I wasn't the only consumer that was disappointed. And there were some pretty significant gaps in leadership mindset and customer service that I found and went, you know what, I can jump in and add some value here.

And that was six years ago. And here you are. What's so interesting about that story is that the sense of entitlement from the first guy who'd been doing the right thing, though, you know, that's what you're taught. Follow up.

The fortune is in the follow up, you know, and do all the right things, work that database, show those people that you're there and value and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like crunch time. It's like then you see the metal of the real person. You saw what he was really about.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, you mentioned in your intro this essence of, well, what does constitute like a good operator and what doesn't? And for me, there's two types of flavors. There's the transactional agent. That's just listing commission, listing commission, you know, next. And then there's the relational agent.

And, you know, we know from the Roy Morgan image of trusted professions that real estate agents, particularly in Australia, have been the third least trusted profession in our country for the last five years.

And that's unfortunate because as many chess beating cowboys and cowgirls that are out there, there's also some big hearted game changing agents who are really there to support people in this process.

And I think it's a shame that those great agents get tainted with the same brush of the ones that do a poor job.

So, Mr. Switzerland, did he maintain his level of perfection throughout the whole process?

As in, did he keep staying true to his word, being that relationship sort of the trusted advisor or did the conflicts or did the transaction or did he fall back to kind of the position that a lot of other agents are back in and transactional?

Great question. Uh, what ended up happening was we actually decided not to sell. So we, we did, um, and he was great with us. So we know we had some circumstances. So, We didn't get the experience of fully selling the property with him and he moved on and did other things.

And it was like 10 years later that we sold.

But what impressed me particularly, and this is a good insight for those that listen, we know the power of a pre-listing kit, which is just a piece of communication and engagement that you can have with the potential vendor before you meet them face to face.

The thing that I appreciated was there was a high level of consistency and high standards from the moment we spoke on the phone.

to him sending his assistant with a little pre-listing kit with evidence of their market knowledge and experience, a couple of complimentary coffee vouchers that just happened to be for our local cafe, which was like, oh, that's kind of a nice synergy. And then, you know, his service in the listing consultation.

And then, yeah, we signed up with him and then about, I don't know, it might've been two weeks later, we're like, you know what, we've had some stuff happen and We need to change tactic here. And he was extraordinary.

And it's no surprise he was the number one agent in the area and had been for a good nine years with the brand that he was working with.

I mean, a lot of that comes down probably to his mindset, right? So he has probably got more of a growth slash abundance sort of mindset that came across. And so when you said to him, look, we, you know, life change, we no longer want to sell.

Yeah.

He was like, well, that's the right decision for you. I support you. I'm going to help. Exactly.

Yeah, he didn't – Agent A, as I said, he was shocked. Like his whole face dropped when we said we're just going to get a couple of different opinions. This guy we signed up with – you know, we were like in. We signed up. And then we said, you know what, no.

And he did not flinch, Chris. He was – He was so over there with us. And you're right. He had an abundance mindset. He had a service orientation. He played the long game. And that's what a relational agent does. A relational agent isn't there focused on their own agenda.

And they understand that real estate is a marathon. It's not a sprint.

And the most successful agents are the ones that nurture those relationships long term because how you treat me in that engagement will influence whether I do choose you in the future and whether I promote you to my family and friends who are asking me if I know anyone.

Even though we haven't transacted, it was all in the way he treated us. And he was just loving. He was just real and loving and human.

And the big test would have been definitely when you said you're not going to sell. Correct. This guy actually had it in the bag properly as in with the signed agreement. Yeah. It's funny.

It just reminds me of a story from when I was in my selling days and I lost a listing because I was honest about the price. And... Those people, you know, chose another agent.

They went through the whole, you know, really demoralizing process of then being beaten around the head to be reeducated as to what the real price was and then fundamentally selling for what I suggested it would sell for anyway. Now, they were one of my biggest advocates for.

They moved my listing and I got four listings off them. Yes. They basically said, don't go with that one. We should have gone with Veronica, really missed, really, really regret not doing that. So you should do that.

So, yeah, so those four and then, of course, everybody that they told, I think that was, you know, very key to me doing that.

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, we know from the research that CoreLogic RP data have done that buyers and vendors want two key things. So those of you out there that are listening, these are the two key components. when looking to choose your agents, Trust and transparency.

They're nice big statements, but how do you establish them? Trust is showing up consistently. People buy people, not products. They're actually buying the agent. They're not buying the brand. They're not buying the logo. They're not buying into your sexy collateral and the color of your flags. They buy into your energy.

And how you show up and how you treat that vendor or that buyer, and if you show up consistently, that's going to establish trust. And transparency is what you're talking about, Veronica, going,

you'd rather tell them the truth around the current value of their home or the current landscape of the market or you know comparable sales or and and then you can lie in bed at night and be horizontal with your integrity intact and know that you're you know you're not trying to pull the wool over people's eyes because we can people here's the deal you can smell inauthenticity

And you can smell manipulation. And I think that's some of the greatest qualities that a top agent has is I'd rather you be trustworthy and transparent with me. So I know where I stand rather than be, you know, a snake charmer, just trying to get the business and then not delivering.

And then the other interesting piece of that research is just

as an agent, the research shows that vendors typically lose 47% of their confidence in their agent of choice during the transaction. So many, what this means is many agents are great at seducing the client to get them, they get the listing and then, you know, then the things start falling through the cracks.

They say they're going to be at all the open for inspections and they're not, they send their assistant, they make mistakes on the board, they, you know, make mistakes on the The advertising, they're not fulfilling on their promises. They're not effectively following up.

And the shame about that is if I've lost 50% of my confidence in you, I'm not likely to retain you as an agent in the future. I'm definitely not going to refer you. And the most expensive part of business is finding and keeping a new client.

So that means that agent has got to go and, you know, generate another 50% more business because you lost me.

The problem with that, though, is that the vendors or the consumer is playing their part in that game because that vendor has allowed themselves to be seduced. Yes.

How do we deal with that? Yeah, great question.

You know, I know you guys are really big on revealing and illuminating the mistakes that buyers and vendors make.

And I just want to actually acknowledge you both for creating this podcast to educate all of us on what we need to be mindful of and what we need to do to protect, preserve and conserve our biggest asset, because it is the great Australian dream, as we know.

The average Aussie earns about I think $79,000 per annum and the average combined income is $110,000. So we work hard for our bricks and mortar and people want to get a good result. I think the biggest mistake that vendors and buyers make is they –

They give their power away. And because it's, you know, inverted commas, it's not an industry they work in or they don't understand it. They, you know, and I'm speaking from experience and from what I've seen over the last six years, they're not doing their own research.

Now, I would like, why would you work your batutis off to get your biggest assets and Engage someone who you meet online and then in a, you know, a one-hour listing consultation.

By the way, I call them listing consultations, not presentations because as a vendor, I don't want jazz hands in the sales pitch. I want to... I want a conversation. I want to toss it around. I want to effectively pull themselves together.

So I think the consumer needs to just get present, no matter what your reasons for selling or buying are, please get present to the gravity of this transaction because this will make or break the level of choice you have for your future.

And whilst you might be time poor and tired and homeschooling or you've lost your job or you're relocating and you've got a lot on your plate,

When you give your power away to somebody else without fully understanding what's involved in the effective sale of your asset, I think that's where people make a mistake and, you know, you can – Spend under $100 to get a report from CoreLogic to have an understanding of your property.

That alone is going to save you a lot of time. Consumers are savvy now.

If someone actually does that and then they're sitting in front of an agent that has done exactly the same thing. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

That's a telling sign. Well, that's it. I mean, and that's the thing. Unfortunately, there are very, very lazy agents out there. Do you know how many times I've gone into to have a look at properties myself and I go, I go in and, um, you know, and I'll ask how old's the property?

Why? Like I'm, I'm asking questions and this

interview the agent and you can tell by the way they respond whether this is just like a you know a number in a deli or whether this agent absolutely knows the ins and outs of this property and therefore can effectively articulate the highest value of this piece of real estate so I think the biggest mistake as I said a couple of times is consumers please please take no matter what life is throwing at you right now take the time to

invest in looking at what the real estate landscape looks like and also take the time to research agents within your area. And there's some things that you can do to make that easy for yourself.

I think it's a really good point because it's not just regarding real estate, is it? It's really anything in life. If you go in there and pass the baton to a professional or a service provider or whatever it is, you're just basically outsourcing all your risk to someone.

And if you haven't done any due diligence on who you're selecting...

you know it's just a big risk right you're going to come down you know three or four weeks later you go I'm going to regret that decision but yeah if you've spent the time you've looked around you've checked some references etc it may still go wrong but you're not going to regret your decision as much and you're potentially you're going to get a better result by picking someone better and um you know I say that all the time and you know broking financial advice if you're going to go pick an advisor you know you don't just go and sign up with the first one you

It's a big decision. You're taking someone on for a relationship. Correct. Correct.

And you want someone that's going to work for you and represent you. And the other thing is, and as a peak performance coach in the industry, one of the big things I invest my time in is You know, this is a counterintuitive industry.

Like as human beings, we love certainty, security, instant gratification and instant validation. You put your hand up to work in real estate, you're in the lion's den because you're going to get rejected and told no every single day. You work for commission, so you do the work, you get paid three months later.

It's the third least trusted profession in the country. So people aren't running down the street going, yeah, you're a real estate agent. Awesome. Come in and let's put the kettle on.

And if you don't have the headspace and the self-worth and the value, the personal value to rise resilient in a world of rejection and uncertainty, you will become one of those transactional agents and you will not survive.

There's so many agents that walk into a home, they don't feel good enough. They are feeling insecure. They're coming from a scarcity mindset. They think that real estate is a fast tickets of fancy cars, shiny shoes, and a sexy watch. And it's actually not. This is not about bricks and mortar.

This is a people business. You got to master the art of connection before you can earn your commission.

That's very true. But do you think it's a problem here with the agent or is it the agency? You know, like if you're a new agent, you could pick to work at lots of different agencies. Is the biggest mistake that they make, they choose the wrong agency and is it the agencies that...

kind of perpetuating this problem by creating this sort of boiler room you know sales environment where it's all about just getting listings and getting sales great question i think i think it's a combination you know i think uh an old quote that i heard when i was 17 and i started my um

management cadet training back with a major retailer many moons ago.

I remember the facilitator standing up the front saying a fish stinks from the head first. And at the time I was like, I don't get that. What does that mean? But obviously, you know, I know what it means now. I think, Chris, I think it is a combination. I think it's,

The brand, it's all about values and ethos, right? So the brand you work for, if it's a cookie cutter, sausage making, churn and burn kind of operation, then it's likely to attract those kind of agents.

Some of the best brands that I've had the privilege to work for are the ones that, A, they treat their agents as the client first because they know they are the ones out there in the field bringing revenue and people to the business and expanding the market share.

So principals listening to this, my first tip to you is please treat your agents and your team like the client because they are. You treat them like gold. The ripple effect will be extraordinary. And I think it's important for when agents are choosing an agency, you've got to have goal congruency.

Like, are you singing from the same hymn book? Do you have a shared sense of value? And because the environment that you work in will influence the training that you have and the dialogue that you use and the coaching that you get. And there is a difference amongst brands for sure.

No doubt about it.

There totally is. And, you know, as you're talking, in my mind, I'm thinking about a number of, you know, boutique brands, but many of them with multiple offices and the different branding or the different flavor of and the different communication of their values as well.

But some of them that are churn and burn are extraordinarily successful. And I think it's put down to they work the numbers and they are highly disciplined and they are transactional. There's no doubt about it. But they are a machine. And I often wonder how do they keep up the stamina? Yeah.

Yeah, I think, well, so from my perspective, one of the things that I teach there, Veronica, is the three steps for success. And those types of businesses have really nailed this to a degree. The three steps for success are number one, raise your standards.

So this is about absolute clarity and precision on your why, your values, your vision, your financial game plan, and you've got to turn your shoulds into musts. So, you know, we know we should prospect. We know we should call. We know we should follow up.

We know we should do effective data entry in the CRM system for clients, you know, for consumers listening. That's just the tool we use to have your details clear. We know what we should do, but most people should all over themselves and haven't defined their musts. So you have to master your musts.

So that's number one. Those kind of agencies that you're talking about, they've got very clear financial goals and that's the kind of North Star that they follow. They're not apologetic about wanting to be ridiculously successful. The second step to success is simplify your strategy.

So this is where things are extremely systemised and automated to build efficiencies and effectiveness. So it is that well-oiled machine. Sometimes for some agencies it can come across as a little bit Wolf of Wall Street. And, you know, different strokes for different folks. There's, you know, the agent Mr Switzerland that works

It was literally, he said, what would you love? Now that's not the language of every single agent. That was very warm and fuzzy and that spoke to us. But there are other vendors out there that you say, what would you love? And they're like, what are you talking about?

This is not kumbaya, have a chai and knit doilies. We're actually wanting to sell our home. So I think that's also, you need to be a chameleon. You need to research your vendors and buyers so you can actually reverse engineer your approach. That's what great agents do.

And then the third step for success is elevate your state. And for me, this is the biggest one in this game because you have to become masterful at rising resilient in a world of rejection.

When you fail, if you decide, and this is what most people do, we fail, we lose the listing or it goes to somebody else.

And what the best agents do is they don't make failure mean they're a failure. They don't make no mean I'm not good enough. They separate the facts from the feelings and they get back on the court really quickly.

So I think that's what constitutes those kind of agencies is that they're really clear, they're super systemized, they're super efficient, and they've got a very robust constitution for continuation.

robust constitution for um resistance of rejection they do it's true but you have to but you you know for me you couple you you add those distinctions with wholehearted love like I had a one of my coaching clients yesterday she's the number one in her area in regional Victoria she's just spent this way I mean this is a whole different perspective

but she's been doing this in lockdown. She's just baked 500 cupcakes and delivered it to her, you know, people in her community. And she's been delivering bottles of wine to all the clients that she knows that are homeschooling.

She's like mama's little helper, dad is a little helper, you know, and she does that because that's who she is. I'm clear. She's number one because of those kinds of things that she does.

or directly via email to questions at theelephantintheroom.com.au.

I find that, you know, lots of professions, but especially in real estate, there's always the 80-20 rule, right? Like 20% get 80% of the work. Yeah. And especially in real estate, it could be even more than that, you know. It's always harder for these new agents sort of to have this abundance mindset.

They're coming to the area, but then 90% of the work goes to these two agents. How do they sort of dislodge them over time?

You know, this is a really good question. And so what I would share is...

You go in not, go in with the, it's all mindset. And this is where the principals and the directors have really, really got to nurture these new, you know, green agents, whether they be female or male, the gender really doesn't matter.

you can't go in looking to land every deal as a green agent if you don't go in feeling backed by your agency.

So my tip here is rather than go in as this bright-eyed, bushy-tailed new agent, you know, hungry for the listing, which is definitely part of the equation, you want to make sure that you go in like representing and communicating, you know, on behalf of the agency so you feel backed.

Now, obviously, you know, a good principal,

initially be the training wheels for that agent and they will attend the listing consultations and they will be there and let the agent lead the conversation.

They may provide a safety net and kind of catch the moments where maybe they get out of rapport or they miss an opportunity because the principal knows those nuances. And then they sit in the car and they effectively debrief without stripping them to shreds.

Like we need great leadership in this industry and there's a whole conversation there. I've done a lot of research on that.

So I think the principal and the director, it's their responsibility to make sure that the green agents are going in, feeling like they're part of a team where that's got collective years of experience. They're speaking as we, not I. And in addition to that,

I'm a big fan of vulnerability and courage. I love transparency and people can smell inauthenticity a mile away. And as Tom Ferry says, the international real estate coach, Tom Ferry says, you know, you can smell commission breath. If you as a new agent, you can.

So if you as a new agent are sitting there at the kitchen table or the dining table and you say, you know, like I'm really proud to represent a brand that has, you know, 45 years experience, you know, I say that not to, you know,

chess beat but to say that you know we have more people in our community choosing us to partner the sale of their biggest assets and we don't take that lightly and when I if I talk about myself as an individual I'm new to this game I want to share something that's game changer if you're an agent listening to this hi by the way I want to give you access to significantly increase your listing conversion rate if that's of interest guys I'm happy to share that here

I think the agents need to also just say, look, you know, I'll be honest, I'm backed by an amazing agency. I am new to the industry. And so I am absolutely hungry to be of service. I don't have 40 listings that I'm managing at the moment. Your home is my number one priority.

And so I will be doing everything I can backed by my principal and director.

with any other vendor right now. You just get me fully.

Some people do respond to that. I remember when I was a sales agent, I was number one for... neck and neck with two other agents for number one position for the last four years I was there. And, you know, so obviously sold a lot in the area.

And every now and then I'd come up in a listing, you know, for a listing presentation or consultation with a potential client and they'd be saying, well, you know, are you going to be as hungry as this newbie? And I was always really shocked. Yeah. Yeah.

It was like, well, yeah, I'm still hungry just because I've been around a bit. But it's funny that some people do respond to that pitch. Yeah.

But yes, some do. But I don't think a lot would if you don't couple it with backed by the agency, because it's like, oh, I'm dealing with someone that's inexperienced. Like I want someone that's cut their teeth, you know, so it's not something that can be done in isolation, I don't think.

I think you

So before the conversation a bit from the agent to the buyer, what are some of the things that buyers should be aware of that agents are trained at or agents potentially, not manipulating because I don't really like that word, but agents are potentially getting better results out of them as buyers because they're using certain tools, I guess.

If you're flipping it from a buyer's point of view, what are some of the best ways they can get better results with agents?

Yeah, well, I think a couple of key things are, as I said before, please do your preparation. Don't give your power away. So do your preparation. And there's two factors.

A, spend some time having a look at the major portals, realestate.com and domain on, just do a search of properties in your area so you can get a sense of what the current sort of value is or the

the research on your agents. The digital interview has been happening solidly, meaning that people aren't getting ink as they scroll through the yellow pages on their finger now.

They are literally going online and looking at who are the top agents in the area, and they are doing digital interviews before they even ring. So Also pay attention as you're driving around your local community. Just notice, especially on weekends, how many boards are out?

Who has dominance in the boards that are out? That's going to give you a really clear indication of who's doing more business out there. And the biggest thing I would say, which is going to sound a little woo-woo,

for give up thinking will tell you more than your mind will. So when you are speaking, and I'm a really big fan, guys, of this distinction called how you do one thing is how you do everything. So when you're looking at agents to choose,

notice the language and the dialogue and stuff that they use online, go to their private Facebook page as well. You'll get an insight into, you know, the kind of person that they are.

So if they've got on their, you know, realestate.com agent profile that they're philanthropic and, you know, charitable and, you know, they believe in giving back to the community and, you know, they're

this kind of persona and then you go onto their personal website and it's, you know, just rooftop dancing on Ibiza, you know, then maybe that's not so, you know, right. Maybe they are as well.

But, you know, it's just the biggest asset, you know, and this could determine like tens of thousands of dollars, in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars difference between So you must be prepared with some market knowledge and agent knowledge. You must research the agents both professionally and personally is my opinion.

You're not spending weeks on it, but just have a little look, get a sense of who they are, see if there's compatibility with how they're broadcasting themselves. Prepare for the listing consultation, like prepare your questions, interview the agents.

these things that I train agents in and this goes back to that tip of how to convert and this is also a big message for buyers, which I know you want to get across.

Every agent in a listing consultation says what they do and how they do it. Here's what we do. Here's how we do it. Here's the marketing campaign. Here's the way the photography is going to look. Here's when it's going to be online.

Here's what the board is going to look like and here's how much it's going to cost you, blah, blah, blah. Everyone does that. But not many agents say why. And this is a huge, huge thing because we literally have three brains. We have the subconscious brain.

We have the limbic brain, which is the emotional brain that makes decisions. And it's always fly fishing for the why. Why do I choose agency versus agent? A or B. And then you have the neocortex, which is the rational brain.

So if I'm a buyer and I'm interviewing three agents, all of them, guys will be saying, here's what we do and how we do it. Here's what we do and how we do it. But if you have an agent that

before I share with you how I can meet what's important in the sale of your home and demonstrate how I can meet your expectations of an agent of choice, would it be okay if I told you why real estate, like why I do what I do all automatically?

And you asked me, Chris, you know, what are some of the things that great agents do? This is one.

If I say, would it be okay if I told you why? Bang, I've turned on your limbic brain because you're looking for why you versus A or B agent.

And if I say something like this, now it's not just the words because energy, I can be saying something, but it can be completely inauthentic. So you want to feel for resonance. If I said something guys like, for me, it's really simple. I love real estate because it's an opportunity to

associating the highest value for your biggest asset, because I know it's going to give you greater access to choice in the future. And here's an example.

And if I pull out a book and I don't just show the bricks and mortar story, but I show, you know, here's Fred and Ginger, their dream was to always, you know, open a Turkish bar. We were able to get $35,000 more for them.

And that's us on opening night, having some baklava and a coffee, you know, like, and here's so-and-so and so-and-so. And you tell those stories. that engages me in a way that's not transactional. So please make sure that you ask your agents, like, why real estate? Why do you do what you do?

Especially if you're the third least trusted professional. Exactly.

now um going back to one thing you said about using your gut now with buyers we said you know there's there's a gut thing that a lot of buyers have and and firstly if they don't trust agents it's going to be difficult trying to work out who they should trust and who they can't trust and and i keep reminding buyers look you know you've got to understand the agent works for the vendor a good agent will do their best to actually help you but you got to understand the buck stops for them with the vendor um

But the thing with buyers, you know, there's so much dialogue out there at the moment that does manipulate buyers or influence buyers, depending on what words you want to use. And there is so much ability from the agent's perspective to create urgency.

And I've heard this recently from a lot of agents are saying it's our job now. The market is, you know, the market slowed down for a couple of years. It started peaking again. Then COVID's hit. There's a level of uncertainty.

concern, shall we say. I mean, it's still fairly strong. You look at Sydney clearance rates, we're looking at mid-60s and have done so since May.

So it's strong enough, but there's a level of uncertainty out there in the marketplace. And when that's the case, the agents say, right, well, it's up to us to create urgency. Now, So they are doing that, some of them very, very consciously and some of them a bit nefariously really.

How do buyers, I guess, sniff out those ones is when FOMO is going on where they're actually found a property they really love and they don't want to miss out and there's all that stuff and the elephant's running rampant in their brains.

And there are agents out there absolutely very, very, very deliberate in this approach. Yeah.

Yeah, great. I mean, like, how long have we got? Great question.

This for me really comes down to buyers spending the time to get really clear around their non-negotiables and making sure that they are really well prepared as much as possible, i.e.

some of the biggest mistakes that buyers make are they buy emotionally, they overspend, they haven't got their finance pre-approved, so they're wasting a lot of their time and they can't They can't make decisions with a sense of embodiment and clarity and purpose.

And when you aren't centered as a buyer, you're more easily manipulated, for lack of a better word, because people You can be, like you can be.

So I think you have to really make sure, first of all, before you even engage with agents, you've got to really powerfully separate the facts from the feelings, the emotion from the economics of the transaction, because it's a highly emotive situation. You're dealing with a family home. If your emotions aren't in check,

You may get seduced. You may get carried away with a very clever smoke and mirrors kind of agent. So embodiment of your economics and emotion, the facts and the feelings I think is critical. Does that make sense? Like just really separating the two? Yeah.

It does. The thing is, and this is the thing about the elephant in the room, the elephant is the metaphor for the subconscious mind. And psychologists would say that the subconscious mind is driving upwards of 85% of our decisions. 85% if you're quite conscious and up to 95% if you're not.

And so therefore you might be able to separate them, but can you actually withstand the pull of the elephant is the challenge, right? That's right. So I guess what I'm keen for from your point of view, you've been working with agents now for many, many years.

You've seen the signs of a transactional agent versus a relational agent. You've talked about that sort of the beginning. What are some of the things a transactional agent will do when they're working with buyers that a relational agent won't do?

Okay, so a transactional agent is very I-centric. You can feel like their energy is very much talking about their agenda, what they need to do, what the vendor needs.

You can sense that they're not really nurturing the relationship with the buyer or seeking to understand the buyer's perspective. There's a, there's a, there's a not harshness, but it's, it's, it lacks a bit of empathy and it lacks a little connection. It just feels black and white.

It's just, well, this is the way it is. So I think it's definitely an energetic thing. I think you can also feel a sense of there's an edge.

So you can feel the sense of, okay, so yeah, like you said before, Veronica, the agent is representing the vendor first and they can be quite abrupt and harsh and like this is the line in the sand, which is a good thing because I guess buyers kind of know where they stand, but that's definitely, you know, you know where you stand, but I think a relational agent

has this capacity to make you feel like they're working harmoniously with both parties to try to come together and meet in the middle where they honor the vendor's desire of getting the highest value, but also creating a space for the buyer to fulfill a dream.

There's a very different, there's a different resonance. There's a different language. There's a different energy about it.

I think it also comes down to, as I said before, if you have not done your research as a buyer and you have no idea what the comparable sales are on the properties that you're looking at and you are going into

blind you're in a disempowered orientation from the get-go and if an agent can sense that if you don't know what you're talking about like do you know how many times as a vendor or buyer myself I've been more educated on the properties than the agent has and the power play shifts instantly all

all of a sudden I have the upper hand and they go, Oh crap. Like this, this chick knows her stuff. Right. I didn't even tell them what I do for a living. Um, I just, they can see, I know what I'm talking about. I know what the comparable sales are.

I know what the, I've already got, you know, I've already done some research. I know what they bought the property for. I know how much the build was. I know how long it's been on the market. I know it's gone to three different agents. I know they're the fourth agency that's had it.

Like, When you show up like that, you have the power. And that's what I mean. Like, I think that's the biggest mistake that buyers make. So, um, the other thing would be, yeah, no, you go.

Some buyers, you know, they, they faff about, right. They, they, uh, I know there's a saying that I heard some years ago. It was quite like, there's a point at which you need to piss or get off the pot. Right. And, um,

like that so you know and as an agent so there's there's a point at which they're going to try to a volume agent we call them volume agents to somebody that's just really churn and burn they just they really want to and they'll they'll use this language i want to sell it quickly so i've got i can help more people and it's like ah no it's actually speaking for your own bank account but

The idea is that there are buyers out there who need a shove. They need a nudge, you know, and obviously as a buyer's agent, you know, I can work, some of our clients can be like that but we're on their side and they're paying us and so they're more

our loyalty belongs to them and if we nudge them it's because we know based on everything that we've understood about them that that is a good decision for them but a selling agent still got to get a job done right and so there are those buyers out there that need that nudge how does a relational agent work to help motivate and create urgency with those sort of buyers um

Which is distinct from manipulating.

Yeah, I think it's all in the delivery of the communication. So I think, you know, if I was a relational agent and I've, you know, obviously, number one, I'm engaged by the vendor to produce a result.

And, you know, a great relational agent does treat buyers like future vendors because that's actually what they are. Right. you know, it's, you know, it just comes down to delivery of communication and transparency.

So, you know, if it was me and again, just for full transparency, I've never listed and sold a property in my life. I'm an average consumer that saw a problem that did some research and was of service. And I don't know how, but got some awards for the work that I've done.

And, you know, so I must be doing something. Okay.

But I think, you know, if we've got to remember, we're just human beings at the end of the day. So I think a good relational agent will say, you know,

I want to get a really amazing result for my vendor because, you know, it's my job to get the best result for them so they can get greater choice for their future.

I equally want to get a great result for you because I know you really love this property and I'm going to be upfront and transparent with you. I'm not going to play games.

I'm going to be really clear about this is the price that is going to make this process happen and the deal done. And so it's your choice whether you want this property or not. I want to support you in that process. But this is it.

And you've got to stand firm in the value that you're trying to get for that particular value.

I don't think it's any trickier than being really straight about, you know, I want to get the best price for my client and I want to support you in fulfilling a dream here, but we have to work together to get on the same page. And so I don't want to waste your time.

I don't want to play the games of, you know, you do an offer and then we're playing $5,000 here. I'm going to be really transparent and let you know that

this is what's going to have you in the game i have to respect the privacy of the other people that we're negotiating with uh but like i'm gonna let you know if this is your best price and that's it whether you're in the ballpark or not i'm not interested in smoke and mirrors with you so i mean we a lot of our clients use buyers agents a lot of them um don't because it's you know whether they haven't met a great one or they can't afford to pay if their first home buyer etc and

A lot of them will pretty much always ask, so what's the value? And it's not because they haven't gone through the experience before. So they don't really understand and they think, oh, it's all about finding the property.

But for me and Veronica, you might disagree with me, but I think one of the biggest value adds would probably be that negotiation part. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, the buyer is, you know, there's so much smoke and mirrors and so much distrust there.

We had a client just recently, they were buying a property down towards sort of Cronulla and it was like a Thursday and then all of a sudden the agent calls him and he's not using a buyer's agent and we're having a chat and I said, look, the agent's all of a sudden found two other buyers and they're all of, they're in like three ducks lined up in a row as well and like this is

my clients in the middle like i've got someone below you i've got someone above you um we're talking like ten thousand dollars um and my clients call me and go this is a very convenient story on a thursday that's all gonna happen tomorrow on friday um i mean it sounds like it's just too convenient but we just don't know which is what i said to him i said yeah

And the property sold on Friday and it sold for 10 grand more than it was willing to, or what their offer was. And so the agent was actually saying the truth. And that's the thing, like, you know, in that story, you would think that the agent's just got this convenient story.

It's not going to sell. And then it sells. And so it's very hard for the buyer to truly know. And I think that's where the buyer's agent is in there and probably gets the truth a bit more because of the relationship. Would you agree, Veronica? Sure.

Sometimes, yes, absolutely. Sometimes we do get the truth because of the relationship or we can interpret what's being said. I've heard that one before. That's on page 73 of that type of sales agent manual. The problem is that sometimes they're telling the truth, as in this example.

And the dialogue that we have, if you want to use the word dialogue, I guess I just did, the conversation we have with our clients around that is, okay, in this particular agent, we're We suspect they're telling the truth, but we will never know unless you pass on it.

So if you want to call their bluff, then we call their bluff. And it might be that you end up with it for 10 grand cheaper. But it's more important for you to buy this property than it is to let it go. And also we do our full pricing research beforehand.

So we've got a very, very clear idea on what it is worth. And we have a framework that we go through with our clients to help them set their maximum price. Before we start negotiating.

And that's the other thing that is so important that people start negotiating within their mind, the price they want to pay, not the price they will pay if they have to. And that is a really key difference. Yeah.

What's happening there, they're dealing with FOMO and disbelief at the same time, two emotions or two forces that are pulling them in different directions, and then they go into this inertia. Some people do nothing, they miss out on the property they should buy.

Some people then pay too much, they'll never know, and then they'll kick themselves and they'll feel like they've overpaid for the rest of their lives. They're not taking charge of that actual negotiation themselves.

It's very fraught and at the end of the day, you know, by remembering what the agent is trying to achieve and some of them do it in really dodgy ways because they don't have the skills to do it any better and remembering what the property is actually worth in the marketplace and also then understanding what it's worth to you personally, then you can actually make a better call.

Yeah.

And I think, and to add to that what it's worth, what I know and one of the training pieces that I do with agents is also to, I think a huge missed opportunity is when you're getting down to the final negotiation in some cases is you guys well and truly know it could be five grand, ten grand.

Like it's, you know, it's like we're splitting hairs in some ways. I think a massive missed opportunity is when an agent actually neglects to say, listen, you know, Veronica, you know, another $5,000 or $10,000 now, and let me just paint a picture for you.

In the value of this property in seven to 10 years time, you're going to spend an extra five to 10 now to get it. And in 10 years time, you've got an extra $150,000 worth of value. So are you willing to actually make this happen for yourself today?

by going beyond what you expected to pay and invest another five or 10 grand that will actually get it across the line based on the current offers I have, knowing that that created investment where this asset is going to be worth an extra X amount of dollars or whatever it is in seven to 10 years time.

And I think that's the responsibility of a good agent because It's not like we're going to the milk bar and buying a bag of mixed lollies. It's going to be consumed and then it's next. It's an investment that is going to yield great value over time. Might, might.

Well, yes, might. Might yield great. And I hear what you're saying and you're in the business of training real estate agents and that is good practice from their part. However, nobody can guarantee A, if it's going to go up. B, how much is going to go up?

And I always draw people's attention back to CoreLogic's pain and gain report every quarter. We're reminded of the people that sell at a loss. Well, yeah.

You said the two emotions, Veronica. You said FOMO and what was the other thing they were feeling? Because I said yes. Discrust.

They're feeling fear because they actually feel – it's obviously – it's FOMO and fear, two different types of fear. Fear of being lied to and fear of missing out. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's also the ego in there as well. I spoke a lot about this with the client. I was like, you know, you probably want to win in this little battle with the agent. Oh, yes. Because you feel like that your fairness is definitely a value of lots of people, right?

We want to treat others like we want to be treated. We want to go about the world and think that things are fair. And then you want to, when you transact, whether you're negotiating with anything or just buying a service,

You want to feel like you're winning a little bit, but you also want to feel that it's fair for both sides. And I think, you know, in this situation, he was, I guess, focusing a lot on whether he was telling the truth or not.

And that became the most important thing to him rather than buying the property.

Yeah, well, we spoke about it and he acknowledged it and we both kind of laughed about it a little bit. And we went back to, is this the right property? Is it really the right thing for them?

You know, then we started talking about, you know, is 10 grand, will you feel upset if you lose the property, all those sorts of things. Um, And he's like, yeah.

And they ended up, I think it's, you know, actually, I think the reason they didn't go ahead wasn't because of the ego or because of the fear of missing out. It was that I just didn't a hundred percent think it was the right property if they didn't get it.

And so it was ended up being the right decision for them. Yeah. Yeah, but it's interesting. In that transaction, it goes, you step away from what you're trying to achieve to I want to win this little negotiation. There's the elephant. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask you. I mean, agents have to have an ego, you know. You need a healthy ego to be an agent. And ego is not a bad thing. But, you know, how do you coach agents to deal with that and to sort of diffuse that situation?

Yes.

That's a whole other podcast.

But, you know, I think...

Yeah, ego, so from my orientation, there's two places we can be. We can be in our soul and our greatness and who we are as a creator and then we can be in our ego.

Typically ego, what happens when we're in our ego, it's a mask for the wounded child where we didn't get love and acknowledgement from our mother or, sorry, love and nurturing from our mother or acknowledgement and praise from our father. So our agenda in our ego is to seek validation.

And we overcompensate. And why often it's considered this industry can be considered as a very egoic industry because people can be very driven by chasing the shiny. Many agents think they're going to come into here in this space and get instant success and drive those cars.

And do you know how many agents... portraying a persona and a lifestyle that's actually not real and the level of stress, substance abuse, suicidal thoughts because they are pretending to be something they're not.

Yeah, it is. That's a massive elephant in the room. It attracts people that think that they're going to get validation by chasing the shiny and being seen inverted commas as successful.

That is, I mean, I think from the last piece of research I did in the last two years, there's been about 19,000 real estate agents that have exited the building and And I think it's because they've left the industry.

I think it's because they get a massive reality check that you don't show up and then get the watch and the shoes and the car within three months. If you don't have a constitution for hard work and tenacity and resilience, you're going to struggle.

Interestingly, though, when I do peak performance coaching, the amount of agents that have said to me, Tantra, I don't want to lose my ego because that's the thing that drives me to succeed. And I go, I get that. But here's what's interesting.

If you're chasing, um, being validated by external valid, you know, validation, it's an, it's an exhausting, never ending chase.

And no matter what, it's never ending, no matter what award you win, no matter whether you're number one, no matter the biggest sale and record or whatever it is, you will never, ever experience a visceral sense of I am enough. Um,

And that's what constitutes a transactional agent because they are entering people's homes trying to fulfill the pursuit of being enough versus making like Gandhi or Mother Teresa and losing themselves in service of the client time after time after time and letting the sold stories speak for themselves.

Well, that's a fabulous way to, I think, segue to our next segment, which is the Dumbo of the Week. I mean, that's such a great wrap-up of really, I think, what's fundamentally wrong with part of our industry. Yeah. Do you have a Dumbo other than that?

No. Do you know what?

I think, you know, it's really just considering, you know, the buyers, you know, that part of the audience. And I know I've said it a few times. My invitation is Dumbo is as Dumbo does. Please don't be dumb about that.

uh the biggest transaction of your life please educate yourself and and do this listen to this podcast to educate yourself on the things that we need to do to make solid decisions please don't give your power away to agents and get seduced by great dialogue because it could cost you thousands and thousands of dollars and and years and years of your life because you you didn't take the time

to do your research. I think that's the dumbest thing we can do as consumers.

So true. And, I mean, we're singing from the same hymn book, obviously, but thank you so much, Tanja, for coming along.

My pleasure.

And discussing this because these are things that have to be discussed. You know, I think I'm very proud to be a real estate agent. I've been one for 20 years. And I want us to become a profession, but we're not going to become one until there's some significant change in the local industry.

So, and you highlighted it.

And I think it's the consumer can, we can just stand for greatness. Like, as I said, if we just be dumb and give the power away, then we're not causing an elevation of the standards of this industry. And, you know, I think that's something that we can do.

Yeah, exactly. We're blaming the industry and not actually taking responsibility for our part and the part that we're playing.

Exactly. And it's too expensive a risk, really. At the end of the day, we work too hard, life's too short. There's the date we were born and the date we die, the date we're dust, and there's the dash in the middle.

And the dash in the middle, real estate provides an opportunity for us to live in extraordinary dashes. And just please remember, it's a partnership where you are in partnership with your representing agent and agency. You don't give your power away. It's a dance. Lovely.

Tanja, thank you so much for joining us. And we will actually pop in the show notes, we'll pop a link to your website as well. And any other resources that you might want to share with our audience, then send them through and we'll pop them in the show notes.

Would love to. Thanks for the opportunity, guys. And congrats again on elevating all of our awareness on the pitfalls and trials and tribulations of doing this thing called real estate and property.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Tanja.

We want to make you a better elephant rider. And this week's elephant rider training is...

When Tanja was talking about buyers needing to do research, well, of course, it's singing to our hymn book. This is exactly what we talk about on the podcast all the time. But I just want to remind you about the importance of doing your own pricing research.

Now, Tanja did mention that, yes, you can buy a $100 report from RP Data or CoreLogic and

and press a button and get an idea about what your home's worth um yes you can but they're not very reliable you know the only way to do that and likewise when you're buying a property is to actually yourself do the research and look at recent sales and compare them honestly with the property that you either own or you're looking at selling sorry looking at buying and really work through where that property sits in relation to everything else that has been selling in the marketplace and you've got to make sure that they are

relevant sales they are you know slightly inferior or slightly superior or comparable and how long ago they sold and you know and be mindful too that individual sales can have individual circumstances relating to them but um there i do have a free course on this on homebuyeracademy so it's actually homebuyeracademy.com.au forward slash free course i'll pop the link in the show notes and

which actually just is a short three video course that takes you through the process. But you can get online yourself. You can look in domain and realestate.com.au. They both have sold sections. So you can search for sold properties. As I said, be careful that they're not too long in the tooth, those sales.

But this information is out there and you can access it. And you do need to put in the legwork to get a true sense of where any property sits price-wise.

I think it's one of the biggest mistakes you're going to more likely make when you're new to the market and you haven't done many opens, you haven't done many auctions, or if the property just all of a sudden comes out of the blue, because a lot of good properties are selling really fast, I imagine, Veronica, on your scene.

And so all of a sudden this listing comes up or a pre-listing and you hear about it and you've got to make a decision really fast. So it's Sometimes buyers can kind of skip over that and just pay whatever the agent wants rather than making sure it's a pretty fair deal.

Totally. And, in fact, if you remember, we interviewed Kylie Walsh from Di Jones some way back, a good one to go back to and listen to to understand sort of what's going on in the world of agency.

And she did say that, you know, agents know that the buyer that buys a property around the corner from their home because they happen to be walking past and went, oh, my God, that's up for sale. I've always loved that house.

The ones that are out of the market and are not current in their information and their knowledge are very likely to overpay.

Please join us for our next episode when we're talking about social data and how it informs us about how our neighbourhoods and communities are behaving, that is people within these neighbourhoods and communities, and why is this important.

Quite a fascinating discussion with Lucinda Hartley from Neighbourlytics and we find out that there's a bit of a paradox. Neighbourhoods that look the same often underneath the bonnet are very different and neighbourhoods that look very different are often different.

very similar if you are wondering what the hell i'm talking about you need to tune in next week if you're looking to buy your dream home or an investment property in sydney's inner west eastern suburbs or north shore my team and i can help you buy without regrets reach out via my website gooddeeds.com.au if you're looking to buy your first home

Thinking of upgrading into a new one or purchasing an investment property anywhere in Australia, my team would love to carefully guide you on this journey. And most importantly, get the finance right. Reach out via our website, wealthful.com.au.

If you're a first home buyer and you don't want to miss a step with this most important purchase, join me on Wednesday nights at 7.30pm Sydney time on the Home Buyer Academy Facebook page for live Q&A. Check out the website, homebuyeracademy.com.au.

Every month. My team hosts a webinar on what we are seeing at the banks, the best rates, changing policy and their service. We also share the latest insights we hear and read that are impacting the property market direction. Check out wealthful.com.au. Thanks for joining us. We'd love to see you again.

And remember, don't be a dumbo.