Chris BatesOne of the big things our clients come out the other end with our service is telling us the most gable thing they got was us telling them what not to buy. Our motto is buy without regrets and so...
If you can buy a property that will serve you for 10 years as opposed to three years, that will serve you well. It's something... Buying a great property today, that's not just what it's about.
It's also getting something that could be ripe for improvement when the time is right for that investor or for the next buyer. You think about, right, lifestyle, what's important to you? How do you get to work? What do you need for your family? What amenities like parks and shops?
Then you look at the budget.
Welcome to Street Secrets.
I'm Chris Bates and my mortgage broadcast is 2013 and in this podcast we're going to be interviewing Australia's leading buyers agents, ones with decades of experience, have the local insider knowledge on the street and can really help you with your buying process no matter whether you're a first home buyer, upgrade or investor.
In this podcast you'll get access to Australia's leading buyers agents minds every week on a Thursday. What's the word on the street?
Board of Street Secrets, I'm Chris Bates. Pretty excited to be doing this episode today because anyone who's followed along to any other episodes that we've done would just say that I love people who've got a lot of experience, particularly in this domain.
It's something that I feel you get better at every year and it really matters when you're engaging a buyer's agent. And Scott, the first buyer's agent in Brisbane, I believe. Scott McGeever, thanks for coming on. No problem. Thanks, Chris. Yeah, I mean, let's talk about that.
I mean, obviously, 1999, I think the business started. I mean, you know, you were as a BA. I mean, different world, right? Probably no one even knew what you did and you probably also had to figure it out. But, yeah, let's just maybe talk it through, you know, A, your experience.
So, you know, obviously, it's been so long. What were you doing prior to that even though it was so long ago? And, yeah, just the different markets that you've seen in Brisbane over that time because, yeah, Yeah, that's one of the benefits of experience, right?
You just understand how cities evolve and you've seen it go through different cycles. Yeah, absolutely. I started life as a property buyer in the government. I was really grounded in, back then we did unimproved capital values, so it was all about land. that really gave me a good grounding.
And then up until 1998, when I started advising people around buying property and what it was worth, what they could do with it. So a little bit more of an extension to what I was doing, just valuation.
And then the story was we got contacted through our evaluation practice in 1999 by someone moving from overseas. And they were moving from the States. So they knew what a bisagent was. I didn't. I didn't.
And so I looked up what it was and found out what it was. And, yeah, it just ran with it. So they were actually landing – In Brisbane, in six weeks' time, they gave me a brief and I just hit the road.
It took me pretty much that time to, because it was a wide brief, back then in 99, they had $2 million and we were looking for beachfront property. So it was a lot of fun. So it sparked my interest in, obviously, a buyer's agency.
But then after that, it was brought back down to earth because no one else in Australia knew what it was. So, yeah, we had to build from the ground up. And public awareness was a huge thing. So educating people, as you said, that was a massive thing.
Yeah, I think obviously the US experience there, but looking for a super scarce asset as well, right? So he's like, well, you know, I know this is going to be hard to find.
But I mean, that was maybe initially what probably buyers, Asian people thought they needed one for, but it's obviously moved mass for mass market over the last 25 years. But yeah,
Have you sort of seen the Brisbane market evolve?
I mean, you know, and go through those sort of, you know, I mean, five or 10 year chunks just to sort of just, you know, how, when you think, reflect on it, you know, and where it is at now in the sort of particularly last five years, right?
It's gone to a whole other level, but have you seen it play out? Yeah, well, you know, I was thinking about this just the other day because, you know, if we go back 30 years ago, I was valuing in 1992 and we had a real little hump then.
And Brisbane didn't do a lot until that early 2000s. And then three and four, 2003 and four, it just absolutely took off from where it was, which was, you know, low. And then interest rates went up then. So it tapped out for a little while then.
And then so we were buying through all of that period for investors and we were sticking to our knitting. And what I mean by that is just choosing quality materials. areas and quality properties. And I think that's been our catch cry.
For me, we are opportunity identifiers. So we're really good at picking over the market and identifying opportunities for clients. So So that then, you know, GFC and then stimulus and took off again here in Brisbane.
And then after that, probably 2011, 2012, certainly after the floods, that really killed off the market here for a while. And then we just didn't do anything for the rest of that decade. So COVID came and, yeah, the rest is history, I suppose. The market...
Looking back, it's unbelievable. And we were buying properties in, say, Everton Park, and we were buying them for $500,000 in 2017, 18, and then 2021, and they're punching a million dollars.
And yeah, we were scratching our heads, and it's hard for someone that's local to quantify that. Wow. That's unbelievable. But yeah, hey, we just had to knuckle down and just come to terms with it, really. Yeah.
I mean, we had clients buying in those, that 2015 to 2018, 19 range. A lot of, like you say, around that sort of price point, even a little bit more. And what you could get for your money and all of a sudden, bang, right? They kind of all doubled, right?
The 600 has become like 1.3, 1.4. And
it's um it's a really hard market so how do you you know i think in this you know i don't really talk about too much about where we are right now in the cycle that sort of stuff but you know it just because of the run and what locals sort of are saying is it is it do you feel like it's just a bit of a natural affordability curve do you just see that the better areas and the the real scarce assets will kick on because they're they're just something x factor about them and you know the people in brisbane that will still want to upgrade within those suburbs like
Obviously, you've got to be quite nervous when you're transacting after a big run because the risk is high, but hence why you've got to be really careful what you buy, right? Yeah, absolutely. And that's really the key. Stick to quality. A quality asset will always appreciate.
or it won't go backwards in a flat market or when the rest of the market's seeing a downturn. And that's something that we really took hold of in early days is, okay, can we buy an asset and it can still flatline if the market's going down?
So someone could reasonably... sell it in any market and still get their money back. And the other measure we used was, okay, well, I'm not going to put my money into it. Well, why would I expect a client to put their money into it?
And so that has stood us in good stead over years and made sure that assets that we bought for clients increased to be. Yeah, it's something you can be proud of, right?
Like it's obviously trying to get the outcome the client wants, but also you've got to make sure you put that, you've got the experience, you've got the knowledge, right? You've seen those down markets, they haven't, you know, and they're also wrapped up emotionally going through purchases.
It's just, you need that sort of steady set of hands. I mean, obviously we've had floods in the past in Brisbane that, you know, people forget and then they come back and then, you know, and also just as parts of suburbs that,
know get overlooked in booms right um how do you sort of when you think about you know inner ring brisbane which is what would you know where your specialty is you know how do you sort of you know guide clients onto some of the challenges in different pockets and you know highlighting it that is only x case from the city but it's it's really held back because of these reasons or you know how do you sort of make sure the clients get the right you know outcome for the right brief
Yeah, I think whether it's an investor or whether it's an owner, ultimately, obviously an investor doesn't mind. They're really dollar driven and they want growth, they want return. An owner is a bit more emotional. They want to live there and they want to live in a nice place.
have a good area. But the underlying thing I always say to people is you just don't want to make a bad investment decision because ultimately your home is that tax-free thing moving forward that you want to get really good growth out of.
Yeah, obviously you want the pool or you want the deck or whatever it may be. So knowing areas, knowing streets, because Brisbane is a really undulating city. So knowing that you buy on that right side of the street or
in the right area, the right aspects, because it does vary dramatically from suburb to suburb, but street to street. One thing that does get publicised a lot, obviously, is median prices in suburbs.
You can see suburbs perform really well, but if you buy within a poor position in that suburb, you're just going to get crawled when everything else is growing and you're down in the dip with no sunlight and overland flow.
and you're wondering well i've bought in paddington this is a great suburb why aren't i seeing the growth so those those little things have really come to the fore now but um people just didn't understand that back in the day obviously uh the land quality right is is wrapped up it's the ticks the boxes on a piece of paper four bedrooms and two baths in paddington let's call it and um but you're right that's that's in the bad pocket right that was the bad part of the street and it's the
It's the pocket that has got issues with noise or light or floods or whatever. And yeah, and I think there's, you know, they seem not much when you're buying in a hot market because everyone's going up and everyone's sort of FOMO.
But when things do cool off, those compromises sort of get factored in and I think you sort of got to have seen it both sides of the coin to be able to have the confidence, like you said, there to have those difficult conversations with the clients.
I think you've got a bit of a full circle, right? You've obviously grown a business. And then also now you've sort of, how does that sort of also help you now?
Like it's, you know, I'm sure there's times when, you know, time is tight and you can't be on every brief, but, you know, it sounds like it's more on the other side of the coin. You've gone back to the, and you can get a lot more like one-on-one with clients. Yeah.
Yeah, it's actually quite fulfilling because when we started, it was just me and Amanda, my wife, and then we were joined by another lady. And it was easy to be across everything.
And as you grow, as public awareness of bias agents became more prevalent, You know, we took on more clients and I was across every brief. I was looking at everything, but I wasn't involved actively in searches. So every property we were buying, I saw.
But, you know, it's obviously hard when you're growing a business and running a business. So, yeah, I think over that sort of 20-year span and we've come off it now, And, yeah, I'm back client-facing. So that's really good.
You know, people get me. So I work with another lady, Sarah, and it's just us, team of two. And they get both of us, two for the price of one.
So, yeah, it's really good to be able to be back, you know, a little bit granular and servicing people and helping them buy because, yeah, I heard someone the other day saying that they've got a DD checklist, which, yeah, we did.
And I was talking to Sarah the other day, and I actually have that sort of mental thing, that DD mental thing. in my head where I just look at a property and just check off a lot of things and I can just discard it.
So that's a really hard thing for anyone that's been in the industry a short time to be able to do. So we find it, I cut through a heap of property before I even get in the car to go out and have a look at something. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
You know, the things that are all the deal breakers that you are, you know, are going to be deal breakers for other buyers and different buyer pools. And, you know, it's great. They love it. But this is going to really hold the price back.
And, you know, you're not wasting your client time or your clients. So you can be really on getting yourself on the tools is unbelievably valuable. I, you know. it's one of the challenges we've had, we've grown the business, you know, it was me doing it all like you.
And then, you know, fortunately for me, I had Ben, you know, my business partner, who's just amazing at loans and structuring. And I realized pretty quick, he's actually better at that than me and getting loans through banks.
And so I could help on more of the guidance on the decision-making, but yeah, it's really valuable. I think when you can speak to those ones with the experience, I think, and it's been one of the challenges of new to industry buyers agents and buyers agents growing in the,
You know, you've got someone who's maybe got a bit more experience, but even not that much. It's a real issue, I think, because it's a high paying service and it's a real personalized service. And what you're paying for is that value and that risk protection and the knowledge transfer.
And yeah, you just sometimes it's... there's always a pressure in organizations as well, sometimes to buy, you know, the commission only models or the bums on seats issue. And I think that's a huge value add to have someone who's been tracking the market for 30 years.
Like you say, know the streets, know the deal breakers. I mean, when you think about the sort of, you know, the Brisbane market, is it sort of, how do you break it up in terms of, you know, the North versus the South, the East versus the West?
Like, how do you think about what drives those, you know, let's say those four different markets? It's interesting because back in the day when I was doing valuation work, I was traversing the city.
In a day, I could be covering 150Ks and going back and forth and north and south and east and west.
So getting to know it like that intimately was ultimately a fantastic thing because when we're looking for a client, and I know buyer's agents have broken up into clients
a specialist for certain areas, but I suppose my point of difference is I know too much in a way that I can cover the whole of Brisbane.
But it's been an advantage, I would say, Chris, when we're buying or looking in the northern parts of Brisbane, and it just seems to be topping out and getting a little more expensive than, say, similar distance from the city on the south or the west.
So we tend to pivot and then start looking in those other areas. And we were looking for a client late last year in Stafford, and that market just really started to march.
And then we came, we were looking a bit further in and found a property in Ashgrove for the same money. It was just an absolutely cracking deal. Like I said, it was just an opportunity and we seized on that.
And I think that's really where it's at is just being able to weigh off different parts of Brisbane and know what appears to be really good bay in a really good area.
So it's allowed us to really, and when we had a team, obviously we were covering all of those areas, but yeah, it's allowed us to, I suppose, to float around and really source those opportunities.
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things I used to find quite frustrating and putting it out there is I would find that, you know, BAs, I buy everywhere and, you know, every client, et cetera.
And I would say, well, come on, niche down, like pick a pocket, like, you know, own it. And, you know, they would... often a lot of new industry buyers agents would probably, you know, talk to me, give some advice.
I'd be like, that's what I'd be like, come on, just, just pick that pocket. Like I know, and I get it and you get yourself known in that area. And, um, few would do it.
And the ones that did do it, and it'd be, you know, obviously it would great build great businesses, but, um, I feel like you're right.
Once you've been doing it for so long and you, and particularly in Brisbane, it's not as big as Melbourne and Sydney in terms of the, the amount of clients you have to cover. Um,
And yes, it's busier and yes, it's a bigger city, but I think once you've maybe got your decades behind you, you can sort of pivot a lot. It's just that at first you might be like, that's not a great strategy, but as you've been doing it for decades, it actually does because...
And someone who's obviously buying interstate or is moving there, let's say they're a Sydneysider, they don't know the city. They don't, right? Like they've maybe gone and stayed a couple of times around the city, but they don't know.
And there's just so much to understand, particularly that sort of family markets, schools and lifestyle and communities and sport and commuting for work and so on. You know, someone who's got that sort of broader, you know, can show them different offers in part of the cities is really valuable as well.
You know, when you think about the sort of the apartment market in Brisbane, you know, it's gone on absolute tear. Surprised me a little bit, to be honest. Obviously, there's two types of apartments, the high density and the scarce good stuff.
But when you think about where it is now, like, you know, is it what's going to, you know, you're really confident around the sort of the next evolution of Brisbane, obviously the Olympics and, you know, and just the overall buzz behind the city.
It's gone up so much, but it's still got so much strong fundamentals behind it long term, you know. Yeah. What's your thoughts?
Yeah, when I was talking before about where we bought all around Brisbane, we were doing that, obviously, with a broad base of knowledge and looking at areas and what they were getting. Early on, there were things that the initiated called suburban commercial improvement projects.
They were really beneficial for lots of parts of Brisbane where they extended footpaths and had outdoor dining, which Brisbane had never had. So they were done around areas with suburban apartments.
Brisbane went through a period in the 80s and 90s before city plan where you could just get an 800 square metre block and bowl over a house and build a six pack. So a lot of us had that done.
So city plan came in and then everything was, you know, there's heritage protection. So it left those areas where you can't demolish a house with units. And they're in amongst all of these houses that are now having millions spent on them.
So digging around and looking at those sort of units in really good blue chip suburbs, we've done over the years for clients. So that will be, I think, moving forward, they'll be really good investments.
I think the Brisbane market as a whole, I still see that No, we've got the rubber band can stretch a bit more. I think the bays can go a little more without going over the top.
But the thing I think that's happened recently is the slowdown has been great for this market. We just couldn't. keep pace. So just that coming off has been really beneficial. And yes, more buyers have gone in.
We were going to open homes beginning of the year where there was 40 groups of people. And you know, there'd be 20 offers, um, within a day. So I think that that's just not sustainable.
So, um, so I'd had to, um, had to come back, but I think, you know, I tend to think the Olympics is, you know, it's a bit of a myth. We're going to get dragged along just because of it and the infrastructure and the development that's going to go on.
Um, hopefully the legacy projects that will be the massive benefit for Brisbane and, um,
And yeah, we'll grow up because I went to, maybe going to Sydney in 2000 and had been there for a few years and went to Sydney and landed and drove in in a taxi and thought, wow, this is a major international city now.
So I think Brisbane will not be a Sydney, but yeah, we'll grow up. We'll be a major country town. Yeah, I can see what you're saying. It's the mindset shift. It's also the exposure to the world. It's the, you know, it's one of our greatest things of Australia, right?
We are desirable for people moving money from all over the world and, you know, making it their home. And they might have never even considered Brisbane, but all of a sudden it's on their TV and they might. So I think there is a bit of a network. And you're right, the legacy is,
you know it's not stadiums in the suburbs it's there's roads there's infrastructure there's rail there's new sporting facilities there's you know gentrification of suburbs and development and there's all these other things that greatest things of australia right we are desirable for people moving money from all over the world um and you know making it their home and they might have never even considered brisbane but um all of a sudden it's on their tv and they they might so i think there's a there is a bit of a network and you're right the legacy
you know it's not stadiums in the suburbs it's there's roads there's infrastructure there's rail there's new sporting facilities there's you know gentrification of suburbs and development and there's all these other things that come around and it's not so much the olympics per se it's the it's the the getting the city ready for it and ongoing um i mean i i always look at the um
sqm research you know look at the listings in brisbane it's um it's a really crazy chart when you look at you know like you know you look at the 2010 to 20 range um an amount of listings and a lot of old stock that was on the market in those and um you know you had a choice yeah you know it was 30 000 roughly listings and it's kind of been at 15 000 now for for
for like four or five years. So half the amount of properties coming onto the market, nothing's sitting on the market. So that shows our desperation in the market. Everyone's just buying everything. And so it must've been a really tricky market to sort of navigate in those years.
What were some of the things that you sort of really did to, is it the relationships with the agents, making sure you went hard on the good stuff and sometimes had to force clients to be a bit more patient than they wanted to be? How did you sort of navigate that period?
Yeah, definitely making sure people are more patient. That's all part of that education process in the beginning with our clients when we're setting up a brief, just making sure that we're going to be doing the right thing by them and we will find it.
For every no, we get closer to a yes and that's the thing we sort of live and die by, the We will find it if it's out there. We don't mind a challenge, but we're not going to take on a brief that is unrealistic.
And I think during that period, yes, there was challenges in that 2010 to 20 with so much stock. You had to sort through a lot of stuff to come up with the good stuff. But there was a lot more scope, I suppose, for negotiation.
And I think a lot of, you know, the apartments that we had were in oversupply and a lot of people bought those apartments and saw zero growth, like no growth, and in fact went backwards in some instances.
So when COVID hit, a lot of people just took that opportunity to dump those on the market and they made money out of them, absolutely. They got the growth. So the longer they held into COVID, the more growth they obviously got.
yeah they finally got the growth it was um you know 10 10 plus years um in the last few years and um you know they got saved by building prices going up you know 40 50 plus percent um and a real stock shortage getting built and um complete fomo in the market with uh desperation affordability and investors and so it was the perfect storm to push up everything um and uh
Things have changed though, right? Budget last couple of weeks ago, it does change the dynamics for new investors and some of those forces that maybe were what drove it up, not due to the genuine scarcity to it, can sometimes unwind.
And so if you did get out of those, I think a lot of people got burnt massively in that period, right? They bought their hell for 10 years, got nothing and opportunity cost was enormous versus buying a A house in Everton Park. This is buying a $500,000 apartment.
Two different lives that got created there. I mean, when you think about, you know, the Brisbane market sort of pivoting, you mentioned around the development. I think that's a really good learning that a lot of, you know, buyers maybe not know. Like they just...
You're in the market and you're learning so many things to learn. I think it's a really difficult job, if I'm honest. And development and city planning is something that I feel like over years you start understanding how councils work and the feasibility for developments, et cetera.
And so naturally when prices are higher and once the cost of land plus the cost of build, you are going to see an expansion of
new builds um not so much the maybe apartments but a lot of uh you know duplexes mid-rise um and the city's going to have to go on its next journey how are you sort of factoring that in when you're guiding clients on briefs and saying well this is brisbane this is how it's going to change over the next coming decades i know that that's it could happen but it's unlikely to happen in these areas um how are you doing that
Yeah, look, we've always looked at either the set and forget house or going to buy a development site where it's low to medium density residential, where there can be apartments or townhouses built.
And we are always, when we're looking at those things, doing our own feasibilities to know whether it works or not now, as well as in the future. And that's all upside, right? So any growth that happens from now is upside for the client.
So I suppose we pride ourselves on looking at those opportunities because we've got the experience to know what building costs are, what can be done. We know city plan and what can be developed on any one thing.
And I think if a client wants something like that, it's just so totally different to a set and forget house. But some of them are just willing to take on that bit more risk. And they don't have to develop it. A buyer doesn't have to develop it.
It's someone that comes along a developer and they buy the site.
So that's happened quite a lot for our clients where we'd bought in those LMI areas and that's been fantastic growth because the units have increased or townhouses have increased and all of a sudden the gross realisation on any development is huge.
I think you really have to be, you know, one or the other, have that appetite because there is more risk in buying a development site. Yeah, you mean, absolutely. I think it's just being aware of that, you know, when you are going to the home buyer case, it's surrounded by these other auctions.
And if you're buying a development site, how many other development sites are around there, right? Is it really going to get the uplift or is they going to have a lot of choice? I think you, I was meant to touch on it before, but the,
the last five years, you said there was not ability to negotiate anywhere near as say the previous, say 10 years. And that makes sense, right? More listings, you know, boom market. Um, but there's a skill to it and an art to negotiate with how far you can push it. Right.
And, um, you know, I think that's, you know, the, I guess if you were just operating in that last sort of four or five years, you haven't perfected the art of that negotiation skills.
And if you are going to a bit more of a, a softer market, it doesn't mean it's going to collapse, but a softer market, but, um,
Do you feel like this is where those skills are going to come back to the forefront as a good buyer's agent in the Brisbane market is going to have that real ability to know how to get the best price and actually get this thing actually secured rather than just paying the most and just trying to get a deal done fast?
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. In 2021, there were so few listings, there were so many people in the market, and we missed out on so many properties that we offered on for clients. And that was just one of those things, I suppose.
We had to then look at going to the top of the evaluation range rather than the bottom and, you know, educating people that this was not the market to try and get a bargain.
And if it was a good quality property, paying the right money or paying a little bit more for it was well worthwhile because it'll see growth. So
I suppose moving forward now with negotiations is there's massive amounts of people out there that are buyer's agents now, probably not understanding all of the different strategies that you need to implement to negotiate something.
And no two are the same, I reckon. There's so many strategies you can use, that we use, to benefit our clients.
So, you know, I'd have to say also that one of the big things our clients come out the other end with our service is telling us the most gable thing they got was us telling them what not to buy.
And the reason being is that they might have just been looking at something, a homeowner looking at a fantastic house, but it was on a main road and they would have made the biggest mistake buying something like that and paying big money for it.
When we take them a few streets back, they still get the four bedroom, two bathroom house and we negotiate a great price for it. And just because we know circumstances surrounding vendor, market, motivations, competition, yeah, you name it, the positives, the negatives.
And even if it's something that is not suitable for a client, we've always given that feedback to agents so that they know and Yeah, what they may be or they might have missed a negative that holds back the property.
Yeah, I think this is when the relationships and the agents will... Because agents, you know, they're selling. And, you know, in a boom market, I love you, Scott, but I've got someone else, mate, and I haven't got time to chat to you because I've got another place.
And then other markets, they're like, no, no, I need good buyers. I need, you know, people I can trust. I need someone who's not going to fall over. You know, anyone can sort of buy in those hot markets, I guess, if you've got enough budget.
But in those other markets, it's, yeah, having those real educated buyers. Because buyers are a lot more nervous, right? And, you know, you've got to give them the confidence to transact and know that, hey, now, don't buy that, but this is actually tick the box. It's super scarce. It's super desirable. It ticks.
There's nothing major compromised about it. Like, it's a good asset and... You know, even though it feels scary, you know, it's a fair price for this in this market. And I think that's where it's maybe easier to demonstrate value a little bit. But, you know, like you're saying, those are the hot markets.
It's what you not buy is the real value add. And you're playing a bit of a trusted advisor. I think that's it. experience thing.
I think you, you, your confidence level around, you know what, you know, you know, you don't know when you, you know, when you can give your opinion is, is something that, um, you know, you get over years.
And I think that's why we, you know, particularly in the buyers agency space value it so much. I feel like it's a job. You just got to get the, you know, pave the, you know, get the runs on the, on the, the, the clocks on the, uh, speedometer, I guess you'd call it.
Um, Scott's been a really good chat. Um, you know, obviously, um, I feel if someone wants a real personalized, you know, service within the Brisbane market, you know, it's going to be hard to beat, right?
In terms of, you know, working with yourself and your team and, you know, and I think particularly if you're looking at different parts of the city and, you know, want someone to sort of guide you on that sort of home buying journey and particularly over the next period of, you know, who knows what's going to happen, but, you know, it's getting that real confidence that you're going to be buying a good asset.
So thanks so much for coming on. It's a pleasure. Thanks very much, Chris.
Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you got lots of value out of it. If you'd like to speak to our guests today, there's links in the show notes on how you can get in contact.
And if you're buying your first home, upgrading, renovating, or need any finance-related queries, obviously we'd love to help. There's links in the show notes to us as a mortgage broker, and we look forward to next week's episode.
