Chris Curtis on Scarcity in Inner City Sydney

One of the things I've really learned that's been reinforced in the last 20 odd years is scarcity. Scarcity drives value. Our motto is buy without regrets and so... If you can buy a property that will serve you for 10 years as opposed to three years, that will serve you well. It's something...

Buying a great property today, that's not just what it's about. It's also getting something that could be ripe for improvement when the time is right for that investor or for the next buyer. You think about, right, lifestyle, what's important to you? How do you get to work?

What do you need for your family? What amenities like parks and shops? Then you look at the budget.

Welcome to Street Secrets. I'm Chris Bates, and my mortgage broker is 2013.

And in this podcast, we're going to be interviewing Australia's leading buyer's agents, ones with decades of experience, have the local insider knowledge on the street, and can really help you with your buying process, no matter whether you're a first home buyer, upgrade or investor.

In this podcast, you'll get access to Australia's leading buyer's agents' minds every week on a Thursday. What's the word on the street?

Welcome to Street Secrets. I'm Chris Bates. In the studio today with Chris Curtis from Curtis Associates. I've known Chris for a long time. He's been a BA for a long time. But if people don't know you, we're going to talk about sort of the inner city of sort of Sydney today.

You know, everything from the Potts Point, Elizabeth Bay, all the way down to sort of Kensington and Surrey and Darlinghurst and... You know, and even into the inner west and lower North shore, it's sort of all sort of mish-mashed into one.

And Chris got a lot of experience buying in this pocket of Sydney. So for people who don't know you, Chris, when did you become a buyer's agent? You know, how's the journey been? What made you sort of start all the way back then?

As you might recall, Chris, originally I was a barrister for about 17 years in the Macquarie Banker in property. And then that's where I met buyers agents. And in those days there were five buyers agents on Google and that was it.

So I've been around for a long time, about 21 years in the game. Loved it. good amalgamation of legal investment banking property skills. I've been doing my own property stuff for years, still do. And I love it. Just gives me an adrenaline rush even 20 years on.

So what made me do it was got sick of the law and wanted to do something that made people happy. rather than unhappy and being embarrassed that no matter whether you win, lose or draw, they hate you.

So if you can do this right and you've got the energy, the birth, the inclination, the smarts, you can create for yourself, as I have, a very rewarding existence financially and otherwise. So yeah, that's an answer to your question, I hope.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure in 20 years, the industry's changed a lot.

You said it was not that many, obviously there's a lot more entrants over the last, I mean, have you got, how are you sort of, when you think about your own personal development and your skills as a buyer's agent, you know, do you feel like every year you're getting better and that you, but it took a lot longer than you expected to get really good at?

Like, I feel like it's a job that every year you just get better and better at.

Yeah. Great question. Because I had been buying, selling and developing for 15 to 20 years before that, it wasn't such an awful transition. And I was a senior executive at Macquarie in property and I was employed to do that.

So I came to this with a heck of a lot of credentials and a lot of experience under my belt. So the transition wasn't all that difficult. So really what I've done is just transplanted

that um and but what gives the difference between that phase of my life and this professional phase of life this is a profession or at least i treat it as such it doesn't qualify yet as a profession it's a long way from that but um i i like

bringing to bear a professional thing you know for the benefit of other other people and share my experience etc so it's really it's almost like a giving type thing and i've seen an enormous amount of changes i'm very disturbed by a lot of them right now you know i spent five years on the buyers agents chapter in south wales desperately drafting codes of conduct and everything which were ultimately just thrown in the in the in the trash can

And we've ended up with this mismatch of regulation that now means you can become a buyer's agent in two hours if you come in from Queensland. No CPD. It's a disgrace. And there's a proliferation of buyer's agents who are giving a lot of other buyer's agents a bad name.

There's some really good ones out there, including us. But the regulator is the main thing that I've seen as the biggest problem over the last decade that I've been a buyer's agent. More a hindrance than a help.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that's obviously a lot has happened over the last few years with a lot of more people entrance into the industry with a very low barrier and a desire to make money quick and make big fees.

But, you know, I guess the job as a profession, I mean, do you see a profession in terms of just the skills that your minimum standards to enter?

Or is it more, again, the philosophy around how they sort of treat clients and their sort of trusted advisor positioning rather than a sales industry of just

just helping people make transactions happen yeah absolutely another cracker question chris um yeah you've got to be very you know i'm a great believer in exclusivity you know we're a conflict-free model we don't have leasing business we don't have anything that raises a smell that you might have an ulterior motive it's all about and this is what i like and that's why i like having been embarrassed it's all about trust it's fiduciary first

and the rest follows. And that's what a mature buyer's agent needs to focus on. The idea of just getting the deal done for the sake of it, as opposed to what's really in the client's best interest. Have you found everything that is within your power to find

We operate, you know, 90%, 95% off market. That's the function of being straight shooters with selling agents, but also very, very straight with your client. And if it ain't right for them, you advise them not to buy it. If it is right, you've got to trust them.

You know, I'm doing one at the moment, $5 million one. This is the second one this year, similar to that. Sometimes you're a hole in one. First thing you find off market, you've got to trust, they've got to trust you to say, we've got another four months to go.

But I've been around for a long time and you ain't going to do better than this. You've got to get their trust. And that way you build relationships that go on forever and ever. Like I've acted for people five times. I've acted for the governor general of Australia.

I've acted for high court charges, federal court charges, chief justices, and a whole heap of other high powered people. And that's all just by word of mouth. That means you're doing something right. And you know, 85% of our businesses repeat referral. That's what a buyer's agent should be shooting for. That's the star.

They're the stars that you need to shoot for, not just getting the deal done. You've got to get off your ass and go and look at the properties. You've got to smell, touch, feel, criticize, and then do the deal, be tough in the negotiations and honest.

And it's a strange thing, the access you get to properties when real estate sales agents trust you and they recognize your role is different to theirs and they've done business with you. it opens doors that other buyers agents have the doors closed on.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's particularly when you're dealing in the off market sort of pre-market space, it's, you know, they're very nervous on who they let through and who they're going to, you know, what buyers are they going to, you know, consider offers from or et cetera.

So I'm sure you, you know, as you get better and better and more and more trust with agents, it opens up doors that, you know, new to industry buyers agents just cannot compete with, I guess. But if we talk about your local...

Just on that point, Chris, you know what? Because I have been around for a long time, you know, and I'm careful not to develop, you know, sort of close friendships with selling agents. It really is like being a barrister. It's quite adversarial. It's an arm's length, but professional, respectful, mutually respectful relationship.

A number of people say, I'm only going to tell you this. And they're telling me the truth. You're the only one that I trust. Or this refrain. There are so many buyers agents out there now. I've only got a short list of four. The rest are blacklisted. Because they're no good.

They're time waste. They promise that they're going to come in with an offer on contract. They bought my auction campaign. I get this all across Sydney, particularly in the areas you and I am focusing on this podcast. And that's diabolical. It gives everyone tears. But I like that.

What that does is reinforce my point of difference. I'm not saying I'm Robinson Crusoe. There are some good operators out there, you know, and for whom I have a lot of respect. But it really does give you, you know, if you just play with a straight bat, it's funny how doors open.

Yeah, I think it's like sometimes when you know what a good service is too, you've had a bad one, right? And so I think the agents also know what a good BAE is once they've dealt with a bad one.

So I think you've absolutely, you know, it's not good for the industry broadly, I would say, you know, it's like when I was an advisor, it's, you know, it was very hard or frustrating when we You know, I could see it within the bank, so I could see other advisors recommending.

I'm like, ah, it's just... But it did actually, you know, if anything, improve your value proposition when a client saw you. Like, that's not what I was expecting.

And, you know, it's kind of what we build our business on as well in terms of being a broker, right, and giving them a different service proposition. But we talk about your pocket. Like, so you are dealing a little bit on the higher end.

You're not dealing sort of more of the one and the two. And, yeah, that's also from the clientele and the types of properties. But...

when you're thinking about sort of the you know two three four mil plus properties that you're dealing with in those sort of inner city you know so what sort of the things that are driving that market like the the type of buyers and you know i guess the danger slash the scarcity that you're always looking at for in that market

I'm always disinclined to talk about wooden markets, micro markets, et cetera. I should say, too, that the – and this, I think, if this budget does pass, and I think there's a lot of commentators saying, yes, it's a done deal. I don't believe that at all. We're not going to lie.

The CGT, for example, on trust and discretionary trust, it is deaf duty by the back door. That's not going to fly. They'll backflip on some of this. Yeah, I agree.

is really, really consolidating the reality that the primary place of residence is about the only tax shelter left if they carry on in this way because superannuation has been attacked, you know, and then they reneged on that, et cetera. So what we're actually finding, to go to your point,

is that the owner-occupier, which has always been the dominant part of our business typically, will now, I think, become almost the only part of the business, depending on what this budget does. Because if they start tinkering with negative gearing, not tinkering, but just abolishing it, then that's going to be a game changer.

You know, they did it 25 years ago. It lasted about nine months and they repealed it. No shit, Sherlock. You know, you think it's not going to happen again when the circumstances are even more acute. Taxation is even higher than it ever was back in those days.

So it's the owner-occupier that really is going to be the dominant force. And, you know, I think, I don't know, is somebody in the Fin Review or whatever, I think all I think Joe Astin is running some great stuff on his Rampart website. It's a Vale investor. I think that's pretty well right.

And don't get me started on that. I think that young people in this economy are really going to struggle.

State plan control is trying to solve this supply problem and the feds are actually working against them because they're going to create a whole heap of apartments that nobody wants to buy second time around. That was going to be...

mass of them and, you know, it is actually heralding in a potential depression for young people, but they can't see that.

Yeah, I think there's a lot to unpack with this budget. Um, and I think that, you know, a lot of your points are very valid and I think there will be some one backs.

And I, you know, I think your point around the home ownership, just being the sort of the safe haven, the sacred land that they haven't touched. Who's to say they weren't at one point, but I mean, at the moment you're right. So you are moving towards a home owner occupier situation.

whether they build a lot of supply and can get them out of the ground for investors and make a profit on it. I don't think so really in the current economics.

So your owner-occupied bull driving the inner city, it can be sort of when someone doesn't operate in that market, they sometimes don't really understand what drives it. But there's a lot of people driving that market, right? Everything from your downsizees to single parent families to childless couples. There's a lot

in that space that people wanting their city pads so can you just explain just how deep that particularly when you go the three four million range where you know they're really quite scarce there's just really a lack of them as well right in this pocket yeah look it's good and then also there's a real distinction though between sort of strata and you know on the ground the

often spoken about the refrain of it's really difficult for a downsizer to downsize because the transfer costs, you know, the stamp duty, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's a very real phenomenon.

I think one thing I have detected and you might find interesting and I really have, like particularly in the Potts Point, you know, Elizabeth Bay area, this collective sales stuff that's happening.

I attended an all-day urban developer conference two weeks ago.

You'd be across that, and it was kind of interesting. Speaker after speaker, the refrain was vendors have unrealistic expectations, particularly for duplex sites, which are no flavor of the month with the Todd and LMR. Ah, yes. But invariably, they're sort of mums and dads or grandparents that own these things.

They've got no idea of a feasible price for a developer. They're unencumbered. They have been for ages and they're emotionally connected to the property. We're acting for developers like that. It's like pulling teeth back at $3.8 million. At three, it might stack. It's tricky. So you've got those sort of...

those small end developers and then the actual owner occupiers. The downsizing market is real for those that can, you know, stomach the transfer costs.

But I think what the developers are missing, and I don't know why they think this, but I can see evidence of it in Potts Point is downsizing has done one for on suites. They're quite happy with something smaller. The number of times I hear over here, Ah, okay. With these things.

And if you look at something like billiard, for example, that's been on the market now for nearly four years. And I think they've got rid of about three. And there's three to go. And I've been in them. And would I recommend those to a client? I'm not running the agents down.

It's a nicely done thing in a great location. But man, it's overlooked. You're looking straight at the back end of boomerang.

no views and you've got nine unit blocks looking into your master bedroom and and 2.6 meter ceilings because the council didn't let them knock it down so you know you're not even code compliant etc where everything's no 2.7 plus and they're struggling and these other collective sales they've only sold 20 of them unless they've got the drop dead view nobody's interested none of these downsizers are interested in buying it you know if it's obstructed by a tree

They want the view. They want the proximity. They don't want to have to climb 136 steps to get to the delights of Potts Point. They want level access. They want lift access. Some of these developers just don't get it and they languish.

So there is that sort of micro market which goes to your point directly.

And then there's other people we're acting for, for example, who do not want to live in an apartment complex, want to live in a terrace and are prepared to pay large sums of money for something that it can be justified on the comparables. But that's where the value is on the ground.

You can always put a lift in it as well, right? Sometimes.

So easy. So easy now, because they're developing things that you don't even need a CDC just to put one in. And they're discreet. They've got an 18 inch footprint. It just adds enormous value to the property. So you've got those mobility issues for that sort of market you're talking about.

I just really do pity the young people. That's the problem. They deserve to live here. They deserve to live in these communities and have an opportunity, but the policy settings right now will not facilitate that. It's just a dog's breakfast. This affordable housing is a nonsense.

Affordable housing starts at $950 a week rent.

Yeah, you've highlighted some really amazing points here.

From a buyer's agency point of view, I think you just highlighted with, you probably weren't meaning to, but just the power of having really good market knowledge on what buyers really want and understanding what their options are or their alternative options and highlighting how developers are building stuff that just doesn't match what the current buyer really values and wants.

Yeah.

you know just getting a da and just getting approvals and doing a beautiful marketing campaign and some renders isn't going to force someone to go and splash out three four five million it has to be something really special because they're always worried about future development as well and are they going to lose that view etc and um

I think they're going to struggle to sell these developments. I think the affordable housing point you made is a true one as well.

It's a bit of a con how they're getting more floor space with just offering some affordable housing, which is really only a reduction on current rents, I think for 10 years or something. So it's not even affordable housing.

And there's numerous anecdotal, you know, evidence that, you know, when they're in there, there's an apartheid. You know, you can't use the gym. You can't use the swimming pool. Separate door. Oh, it's a separate door because you are, you know, a lesser human. Yeah. It's appalling.

And then you've got this 15-year period of grace. Not a soul says anything about what the hell happens after the 15 years. It's quite apparent that you've got to be earning about $110,000 a year gross to pay this affordable housing.

I mean, what about the poor people that are in the streets of Darling Hill Road, et cetera? What are they doing? And I can tell you, they're growing. They're proliferating. It's very unfortunate souls. I do work with Wayside, et cetera. You see this sort of stuff happening.

You know, it is, I think, symptomatic of a market which is broken in many respects, not across the board, but I think it is broken.

And it'll take another Keating, you know, somebody with the intellectual horsepower to see things the way they are, to change that rather than just, you know, looking for votes.

Yeah, I mean, you highlight another point. I mean, there was a lot of investors, though, in Sydney that have been targeting things under that $1.5 million range, the typical sort of affordable sort of apartment that a lot of families would really want.

So, I mean, that's probably one of the things that has been happening in recent years that Yeah, it's great for the person who's got the borrowing capacity and they can, but they are also buying what the next generation can afford.

I mean, that's one of the things they've been trying to slow down the investor growth. In saying that, a lot of investors haven't been buying that. They haven't been sort of switched on enough to do that.

They've been going and chasing, you know, growth in regional hotspots and, you know, forgotten about sort of, you know, supply and demand sort of fundamentals. If you think about the buyer pool, though, like you mentioned the downsizer, There's a huge, you know, childless couple, you know, pool in Sydney, right?

And from all over the, and maybe they're empty nesters as well. They're not really truly downsizers.

They're not like at 80, but they're just like, well, the kids have moved out or they're only, you know, that I think that a lot of people misunderstand that they are just such a big driver of prices as well.

Yeah. If you compare our gross floor areas in Australia, Sydney in particular, relative to other developed countries like Canada or whatever, it's obscene. It is absolutely obscene. It's like threefold. We've got this fetish about needing more space.

We're wedded to the idea of the linear floor plan. Nobody ever measures the vertical plane. You pay $35,000 or these things in billiards, it's only $60,000 or that thing that is

got some publicity in Potts Point, then 40 McClay Street. They went with $13.25 million. That comes out of $57,220 a square metre. About right for the views on a horrible building, you know, plonked on top of a horrible building. Huge amounts of money. That's all relatable to and only to linear people.

okay you want to put a wardrobe in oh well i need i need an eight meter wall what about just going upwards with that westminster crystal that you never use you can stock that at the ceiling imagine how small your apartment would be if you utilize the space in the vertical plane and imagine how drink and therefore then create more affordable housing for because it would then allow 10 more units into that footprint

But we've went into this obsession with big is beautiful. And my feeling is, and I'm seeing it in the market, and I've seen this evolving for quite some time. It's anecdotal, but not necessarily. People go, I don't need that amount of space. Yeah, that's interesting.

And that's not just the downsizers or the rich people.

bitches you know the people that you the cohort you're talking about the childless couples the upper lead mobile professional couples who for one reason or another health or otherwise decide they're not going to start a family etc you know i think what we need to do is push the change in the thinking that you don't need that amount of space that's in the you know where where we concentrate you know when you've got these there is this urban sprawl that's still going on which is not the area in which we work typically

And we have got no real interest in them. We don't need to either. But, you know, there are still people who want that great big backyard, even though, you know, they're in a heat bubble, you know, and they're still building black roads with black roofs and no vegetation, you know.

And there's 750,000 of them in the one estate, you know, and they've got no sewage. And they're stuck in their car for five and a half hours getting to work. They've still got it wrong, you know. And these planning controls, I think, are in many senses exacerbating that problem.

Yeah, I think you've highlighted some good points. So first, the minimalist movement is probably a real thing because it affects it into prices, right? Like you don't want to have a place that's too big and priced on a square meterage.

And it's just the buy pool is just not there because it isn't what they want. And I think you said the development, but there'd probably also be established properties that just don't suit the future of the buyer.

changes and the preferences but then they'll pay a lot more because of the view or because of the the level access or the extra car park or whatever it might be and so you're just highlighting that and that's why it's so important to have like you know broader knowledge over a long time is because you know you can think that something's gospel but all you go actually know what i've seen this sort of happen before and um you know that just seems to be a trend right now but longer term this is what this demographic could want so you sort of highlight that and you've absolutely um

You know, the concerns with sort of urban sprawl is, you know, no backyards and, you know, the house as big as possible. I think they're actually shifting though.

They're actually, the only way to get these things built though, is to make the land as small as possible and make the house to fit on that land and go up and townhouses.

You know, and that's what my concern with a lot of these estates is that we're moving to an even different product coming where it's even denser in these communities. We've less green space rather than more. And, you know, all the developers are saying that. It's a wealth trap.

One of the things I've really learned that's been reinforced in the last 20 odd years is scarcity drives value.

And if you're one of a thousand, if you're in the marathons or whatever, where there is no distinction between yours and the one next door, and there's others proliferating, particularly with these tax changes, with the others proliferating, there'll be this exodus from secondhand product to new for investors, etc.,

You're going to find it's the newest is the best and then you just move on. You're going to create a whole heap of slums and a whole heap of very, very poor people when they hit retirement age, if they're living in these things.

I just do not understand why these regulators do not have the vision to say, we've got to create the scarcity and we've got to be equitable with how we share these, you know, it's a scarce resource and we're bounded by, we're girt by land, sea and mountains.

There ain't a lot of it, you know, and we're throwing in an aerotropolis in Western Sydney. There's not many people who are going to want to live around that and curfew free. So, you know, it's actually quite the narrow geographic.

We surely can get it better than we are doing, but can't pop the pollies.

Yeah, I mean, I think the future developments coming, they have highlighted, you know, maybe they're not building what the real market wants, which, you know, maybe they'll get the market fit, you know, but it's just going to take them a few shots of the gun.

But maybe we do need to go with a bit more prescriptive and in terms of the build quality and the size of property and stuff to flip it back to something that while it isn't scarce, it's much better fit and much better for the livability of suburbs out there, better planning out there.

If you think about sort of that scarcity element, I mean, you obviously mentioned around the terraces there and we talked about sort of putting lifts in, et cetera, but how do you sort of find the scarcity in those older buildings? Like, and what are some of the dangers of,

Now, when you are talking about POTS and Elizabeth and Surrey, there's a lot of apartments, there's a lot of multi-dwelling options you would look at clients for in those pockets because houses are hard. But what's scarcity in those markets? What are the things you look for?

There's a whole collection of things in answer that if you're looking at Strata and there's sort of those sorts of areas, key drives accessibility to public transport, particularly, you know, to some extent, so heals the light, right. To, to transition to the Metro. The Metro has been a game changer across Sydney.

It has driven value, particularly in the inner Western five dock, Russell Lee, Warimba to some extent, et cetera, wherever there's no aircraft or unfiltered ventilation stacks.

It's a hot, hot micro market. You're looking for quality of build, longevity. It's very, very dangerous, I think, to go for anything that's less than 10 years old that's stood the test of time. You're looking for location in terms of access to amenities, particularly public transport.

You're looking for light noise in Australia, the way in which it's managed, the size of the thing.

and its history is it predominantly owner occupied is it or is it you know replete with airbnb or has it a history of airbnb just go and have a look at some of these buddy you know combi locks that are hanging off you know fences or light poles outside a particular building just walk away from it

You know, there's plenty of those in Potts Point and they're notorious. Where that poor soul got shot to death by the coppers the other day. I know women that were assaulted. That building is just festooned with zombie locks, you know, those sorts of things. On the ground, same principles apply.

You know, you've got to, you know, get the most of the rear aspect in a relatively quiet street, you know, that isn't, you know, affected by the light rail trundling past you, et cetera, in Surrey Hills or, You know, and that's where a good buyer's agent comes to the fore.

You might say, you know, you get clients go, I love it. And you go, well, you won't in a year for these reasons. Be careful, somebody's proposing to do this or amalgamate aside or knock it down this or...

It's a high stakes game and it's made higher now searching for things like state significant developments and so forth. The decision last Friday of the Supreme Court, New South Wales, the Bronte case involving Alex Phillips.

Oh yeah. I haven't heard about that yet. Yeah.

Oh, no, it's a major one. I'm going to write an article on this one. Yeah, right. I've read the judgments. It's lengthy. She pushed it out in about a day. And it is a classic example of due diligence. So the vendor was self-represented. Sorry, the purchaser was self-represented. They were smart, obviously.

He did all the searches he could possibly do, et cetera. But he's not a professional searcher. He doesn't know where to look. He doesn't know the chicanery of the new planning controls. You know, state significant developments, HDA, etc. And you can try and search it.

You've got four versions of the New South Wales planning portal. It's not a job for amateurs. Even our researchers struggle. What the hell is this about? You know, how do you navigate this thing? Why are there three or four of them? What are they each saying is different to the other?

And then, you know, we subscribe to, I won't say who it is. I've been in dialogue with them overnight and today repeatedly just saying, what is wrong with your product? I'm paying thousands of dollars a year for this and I can't even search the state significant development.

I can't integrate into your reports an indicative LMR thing. I've got to do it in two phases. Like what's been going on here? You know, I want a one-stop shop that I can rely on. rather than have to pay two researchers to second guess what your product is telling me.

I may as well not have your product. I may as well pay those researchers to go straight to the source. And in some senses, I feel a little bit sorry for Alex Phillips because it wasn't found to be a fraudulent. It was just like a...

misrepresentation and the contract was rescinded, the vendors missed out and had to disgorge the 5% $350,000 deposit. Now that's a bit of a game changer. It was the headline in the Herald on Thursday, Friday, and I immediately read the judgment because it was right to the heart of due diligence.

And that's where a good buyer's agent comes to the fore. And can I just say this, and I have to say this because I know we're wrapping up shortly, but AI great for certain things. Beware danger with Robinson at the moment.

Any buyer's agent that's relying on A, to go searching, B, for the answer on planning controls and that sort of stuff. And I can give you, there's another article that we're writing, case studies that you just get completely bullshit answers. Contamination

That doesn't matter whether it's co-pilot or. So it's a great resource, but this idea of, you know, all you have to do is just put it in a chat GPT. I love the idea of them searching for properties for you. We're doing one in the inner west for a developer at the moment.

And we got an alert. It's gone silent since then. But every day until it went silent for reasons unknown to me, we've searched and found nothing. During the period of those alerts coming through, we found eight properties off market.

Oh, okay. So you're saying, yeah, you set up some, um, yeah, I got you. I mean, that's, I think with the AI, right. It's, uh, you get overconfident of what it's doing. It feeds back. It's very good at making you believe what it's saying. And then bang, it says something that's wrong.

And you're like, hang on a sec, that's wrong. And then you're like, oh, and then your confidence gets pulled back into check. And, um, I think, uh, yeah, it's hilarious. I mean, that happened to me only yesterday. I was like, ah, that's wrong, mate. And he's like, yeah, okay, cool. I'll rewrite that.

Um,

but you're right i think you've highlighted the point around lmrs and todds which i was you know i think it was a huge deal i've been tracking that story i'm looking at the the major projects portal i'm looking at what's getting approved i want to be across i need to this is a fundamental shift together with the budget and it sounds like it's one of the key things that you're delving so deeply on because it's ultimately it's your client's money yeah

But also, there's the yin and the yang to this. For some people, it's a real benefit that there's something in an LMR. Also, the other things are these moot points. What does indicative really mean? Nobody presses them on that. You know, so I have this constant tension with clients, developers and otherwise.

You know, they initially said, we don't want to be an indicative LMR. And I said, well, you'll struggle to find a definition of what indicative means. And if you excise that from the search net, we're not going to take on your instructions because there's nothing left.

Because half of it is all bloody indicative. I understand LMR being in an LMR zone if you're not a developer seeking to take advantage of the LMR expansion. But if you're like, for example, we did the gestation and this was just enormous.

We spent months with a particular person on the upper North Shore. know, a $9 million home, beautifully done, selling it at exactly the time when LMR stopped right at their boundary. And so he put a six-story tower to the north at the rear and to the east.

The difficulty selling that, you know, so he got this. So, you know, from the buyer's point of view, if you can stand a tower, you're in a very commanding position.

From a seller's point of view, you've seen your asset value, you know, potentially plummet and your sales campaign is going to take some time. So it is not a game for amateurs this.

And it's a moving target, right? It's just whatever you think is possible, then you see a project and you're like, hang on a second, is that getting approved? If that's getting approved, why isn't it?

And I feel like it's when you're transacting all your own properties in the market, it's what you thought was sort of status quo has really shifted and

You know, it probably will wash through and there'll be a new norm that we sort of come to know that what's going to, but at the moment it's a battle between state governments and councils and landholders and it's a real mess. And, you know, you don't want to be buying something.

The market will level it because, you know, it's all very well to have these panic controls. It's one thing to have them. It's another for those to be exploited by developers. And right now, and this was, as I said earlier on, the refrain of the urban developer thing, speaker after speaker said,

unrealistic vendors, construction costs. These things just don't stack. So you can have all the permissive planning controls in the world. It ain't going to happen.

And what will happen in my experience, and I've seen this sort of thing happen over, well, I've been buying, selling and developing real estate in my own right and professionally for nearly 45 years.

And I have seen these trends that they come and they go, something that's a hot topic, disappears off the chessboard. And it's like, why? Because it just doesn't stack. And they're very seldom revisited 30 years later. The joys of being old.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. The unintended consequences, but, you know, that happened after. I think a lot of them, if they did listen sometimes, they probably realized before they actually make the changes. But we're going to see how that one plays out. Chris, it's been a great chat.

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